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QUESTION

New York, NY

Can one have a Purim Seudah late in the day, and have it enter into the Shabbat meal? What special considerations are there if we want to do this in the shul as a community Purim/Shabbat dinner?

ANSWER

This definitely may be done. It is based on the principle poreis mapah umekadeish (Shulchan Arukh OC 271:4), that if one is in the middle of the meal on Friday towards sunset, he or she can spread a cloth over the bread, make Kiddush, and continue eating. The following is a guide for how to do this.

SHORT VERSION (for the long version, with sources and discussion, see below)

One may begin the Purim seudah in the late afternoon according to the following procedure:

A. Seudah (Meal)

1. Wash and have bread before sunset
   • Ideally, you should have wine as part of your seudah (this is unrelated to the fact that it is leading into Shabbat).
2. Stop eating before sunset
3. Bring out two loaves of bread
4. Spread a cover over all the bread.
5. Recite Kiddush
   • Have you been drinking wine during the Purim seudah (as is ideal)?
     • Yes → Say Kiddush WITHOUT Borei peri hagafen but WITH holding a glass of wine
     • No → Say Kiddush as normal, WITH Borei peri hagafen
   • For Shul-Based meals
     • If there is a desire from a communal perspective to have kiddush said with the Borei peri hagafen, you can ask someone who has not had wine or grape juice yet to be the person to make the kiddush. On the other hand, this is a wonderful educational opportunity, so it might be best to not ask this person to do it, and to not say Borei peri hagafen and to explain why.
     • There might be people who will not be coming for the Purim se’udah but will be coming for the davening and/or for the Shabbat meal. They would say kiddush normally and also say Homtzi. There should be wine, grape juice and rolls available for them to do so. If there will be people who will be coming just for davening, this would also be a reason to say Ma’ariv together with Kabalat Shabbat (see below).
6. Eat Bread
   • Do NOT make Hamotzi, but have two whole loaves. You may wish to hold them up together and say “Li’kavod Shabbat kodesh,” or something similar.
   • Eat a kebeitzah (or kezayit, bedieved) of bread after Kiddush
   • You can finish your bread immediately, even before Tzeit HaKokhavim.
     • Some advise making sure you eat a kezayit after Tzeit. If you are not careful about this when you make an early Shabbat in the summer months, you don’t have to be careful about it here, either.
7. Recite Birkat HaMazon
   • If you have not davened Ma’ariv yet → Say Al HaNissim and Retzeih.
   • If you have davened Ma’ariv → Say only Retzeih.

B. Davening

• Kabbalat Shabbat should be said BEFORE you do poreis maphah and before you recite kiddush.
• Regarding when to say Ma’ariv, you have 2 options:
  1. BEFORE poreis mapah and kiddush. You would not say another HaMotzi or Borei Peri HaGafen when you return to the meal OR AFTER the Shabbat meal.
  2. In the case of a se’udat Purim at home – the latter option might make more sense: Kabbalat Shabbat while at the table, and then to do poreis mapah and then Ma’ariv after the Shabbat meal. This could be a very nice experience, singing Kabbalat Shabbat with everyone seated at the table, and then leading into Kiddush.
  3. In the case of a community, shul-based se’udat Purim – the first option might be better: doing Ma’ariv before the meal.
     • In this case, there might be a desire to move to the sanctuary for Kabbalat Shabbat, regardless, which would then make it natural to flow into Ma’ariv and would allow for the normal shul Friday night experience. Doing Ma’ariv at this time also gives everyone the easy opportunity to participate. In particular, if there will be people coming just for davening and who will be going home for their Shabbat meal, it would obviously be the best to say Ma’ariv now.
     • If Ma’ariv is being recited at this time, do not recite kiddush after davening (as is the norm in shuls), as you will be reciting it momentarily at the meal.
     • If you are moving to the sanctuary for davening, it would be ideal for at least one person to remain behind in the room where the meal is being held, although this is not strictly required.^[3]
     • If you are remaining in the location of the meal, then for Kabbalat Shabbat, the men and women should sit in different locations, although no mechitza is required. For Ma’ariv, if you are doing it there and not in the sanctuary, there obviously needs to be a mechitza present.

LONG VERSION

May one have the seudah in the late afternoon?

First, we should note that regarding the timing itself in the late afternoon in general, Rema in Shulchan Arukh OC 695:2 writes that it is best to do the seudah when the day is still long and eat the majority of the seudah during the day. Nevertheless, this is just one minhag among a range of minhagim, and some poskim specifically prefer the end of the day for the seudah, especially if it means having a nice meal when done then. There is definitely a practice when Purim falls out on Friday to go from Purim seudah into a Shabbat meal and to do poreis mapah. I have done it in the past and will be doing it this year. I feel that it enables you to have a more serious Seudat Purim and Seudat Shabbat. For more details, see the footnote.^[1].

Having bread and ideally wine as part of your Purim se’udah.
One should wash and have bread as part of se’udat Purim, as according to a number of poskim, it is not defined as a se’udah without bread. This is the widely accepted practice and should be followed, barring special considerations.^[2]

According to a many Rishonim and poskim, the mitzvah to drink on Purim refers specifically to drinking wine, and specifically to drinking during the Purim se’udah, as this is what defines it as a mishteh, a drinking feast, in accordance with the verse: לַעֲשׂוֹת אוֹתָם יְמֵי מִשְׁתֶּה וְשִׂמְחָה, “to make these days of drinking feasts and rejoicing.” (Esther 9:22), and paralleling the drinking feasts that appear at the opening of the megillah. Nevertheless, the general consensus is that this is not strictly required. ^[3]

Poreis Mapah – A How To Guide

To now turn to the key points to attend to when one does poreis mapah and moves from the Purim meal to the Shabbat meal:

• Stop eating before sunset
  • Once the time of Kiddush comes – which is sunset when Shabbat starts – you may not eat without making Kiddush.
    • Shulchan Arukh OC 271:4:
      אסור לטעום כלום קודם שיקדש, אפי’ מים. ואפי’ אם התחיל מבעוד יום, צריך להפסיק, שפורס מפה ומקדש

• Bring out two loaves of bread
  • Although you will not be making המוציא (see below), the practice of starting the meal with two loaves of bread is independent of the berakhah.

• Spread a cover over all the bread
  • This is the poreis mapah part
  • The Kiddush needs to introduce the Shabbat meal and define the eating afterward. Thus, the bread, which represents the seudah, must be covered and only “brought to the table,” i.e., uncovered after Kiddush is made.

• Kiddush – Have you been drinking wine during the Purim seudah?
  • Yes → Say Kiddush WITHOUT Borei peri hagafen but WITH holding a glass of wine (This is the mekadeish part
    • Kiddush still requires you to hold a glass of wine -this is independent of whether you will be making the berakhah over it or not.
      • Shulchan Arukh OC 271:4
        ואם היו שותים יין תחלה, אינו אומר אלא קידוש בלבד בלא ברכת היין
  • No → Say Kiddush as normal, WITH Borei peri hagafen
• Bread – Do NOT make Hamotzi
  • Since you have already been eating bread at the Purim meal, no Hamotzi is required.
  • This need for Hamotzi is debated. Some say that Kiddush causes an interruption and you do say a new Hamotzi. But the ruling is that you do not.
    • Shulchan Arukh OC 271:4 –
      וי”א שאף כשמקדש על היין אינו מברך המוציא
    • Mishnah Berurah OC 271:1
      דס”ל דקידוש לא הוי הפסק. וכיון דספק ברכות להקל יש לתפוס כהי”א
  • Have two loaves, as mentioned above. As the two loaves are there to remember the מן, it would be appropriate to hold up the loaves and say “Li’kavod Shabbat kodesh,” or something similar
  • Eat a kebeitzah (or kezayit, bedieved) of bread after Kiddush
    • Shulchan Arukh OC 291:1
      זהיר מאד לקיים סעודה שלישית ואף אם הוא שבע יכול לקיים אותה בכביצה.
    • Mishnah Berurah 291
      וי”א שאפילו בכזית יוצא ידי הסעודה ונכון להחמיר לכתחלה אם אפשר לו:

• • You can finish your bread immediately, even before Tzeit HaKokhavim
    • Since you accepted Shabbat, you can fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat Shabbat right away
      • Shulchan Arukh OC 267:2
        ובפלג המנחה יכול להדליק ולקבל שבת בתפלת ערבית ולאכול מיד
    • Some say that it is ideal to eat a kezayit after Tzeit so that the mitzvah can be fulfilled when it’s fully Shabbat. If you are not careful about this when you make an early Shabbat in the summer months, you don’t have to be careful about it here, either
      • Mishnah Berurah 267:5
        יש חולקין וסוברין שיזהר למשוך סעודתו עד הלילה ויאכל כזית בלילה וטעמם דכיון דהג’ סעודות ילפינן ממה דכתיב אכלוהו היום כי שבת היום לה’ וגו’ בעינן שיקיים אותם ביום שבת עצמו ולכתחלה נכון לחוש לדבריהם:
• Birkat HaMazon – If you have not davened Ma’ariv, say BOTH Retzeih AND Al HaNissim. If you have davened Ma’ariv, say only Retzeih.
  • Normally, when Shabbat does not follow Purim, but the meal extends into the night, we say Al HaNissim in the second berakhah, since we would go by when the seudah began, i.e., in the daytime, when it was Purim
    • Shulchan Arukh OC 695:3
      אומר על הנסים בברכת המזון בברכת הארץ; ואם התחיל סעודתו ביום ומשכה עד הלילה, אומר: על הנסים, דבתר תחלת סעודה אזלינן
  • In general, when a meal begins on a normal day but ends in the evening, on a day when something special is added to the birkat ha’mazon, for example, on Rosh Chodesh, and bread is also eaten once it is already evening, the additional section is added, since we also go by when the se’udah ends. See MB 271:30 and 188:33.
  • When the beginning of the meal requires one special addition (in our case, Al HaNissim) and the end of the meal requires a different one (in our case, Retzeih), and bread was eaten at the end of the meal as well, the matter is debated (see, primarily, MB 188:23).
  • Most poskim assume you have to pick one or the other, in which case:
    • The general rule is to go by the end of the meal.
    • When it is between Al Ha’Nissim, on the one hand, and Ya’aleh vi’Yavo or Retzeih, on the other, you would always favor Ya’aleh vi’Yavo or Retzeih which are more strictly required.
    • Both of the above points would lead to the conclusion that one should recite Retzeih and not Al Ha’Nissim and this is how MB (695:15) rules.
  • However, according to some poskim, we include both additions.
    • These poskim argue that since the meal spanned the two days and the two components are not, logically, mutually exclusive, both should be said. This would mean that both Retzeih and Al HaNissim should be recited. In addition, Meiri (Ketubot 7b, s.v. Af al pi) writes that when it comes to Purim leading into Shabbat, the established practice was to say both additions, since Shabbat was also the 15th of Adar, which is Purim for those in walled cities. Magen Avraham (OH 695:9) also records the practice to say both when Purim leads into Shabba
    • It seems to me that the reasoning that the two additions are not logically contradictory (e1) is a compelling one, especially when combined with Meiri’s argument that the 15th of Adar is also Purim in some respects. Thus, one should recite both Retzeih and Al HaNissim. It is also meaningful to do this as a way of marking the meal as both a seudat Purim and a seudat Shabbat. (And even those who rule that Al HaNissim should not be said would agree that saying it doesn’t invalidate the birkat ha’mazon).
    • If one has already davened Ma’ariv, then he has said in his shmoneh esrei only the addition relevant for that night and not the one connected to the day before (in our case, he will have said Retzeih but not Al HaNissin in his Friday night Ma’ariv). Given that, poskim agree that in such a case he should insert only Retzeih and not Al HaNissim in birkat ha’mazon as well (MA OH 695:9 and MB 695:15-16).

Davening

• You should daven Kabbalat Shabbat before poreis mapah and kiddush
  • Kabbalat Shabbat is about receiving Shabbat, and it should be said ideally before Shabbat has already begun, certainly towards the beginning of the onset of Shabbat and not after one has already had se’udat Shabbat. See, for example, Mishneh Brurah 271:1
• You MAY daven BOTH Kabbalat Shabbat and Ma’ariv between the Purim meal and the Shabbat Meal (right before poreis mapah).
  • You do not say another Hamotzi or Borei peri hagafen when you return to the meal, even if no one is left behind at the table
  • Davening Ma’ariv and even moving to another room is not considered an interruption (although this is a matter of debate, this is the way we rule), and when you return from davening to the meal you are not required to make any new berakhot
    • SA 178:2
      אבל אם הניח מקצת חברים או אפילו לא הניח ואכל דברים שצריכין ברכה במקומם, אפי’ מה שרוצה לאכול אחר כך א”צ לברך.
  • Since bread requires birkat ha’mazon in the same place as the meal, there is definitely no requirement to make Hamotzi again, even without anyone left behind. As to Borei peri hagafen – that would depend on whether it is צריך ברכה במקומו which is debated – see SA 178:5 and Rambam Brakhot 4:1. So from the perspective of ספק ברכות, you wouldn’t make Borei peri hagafen either. Also, if it is all taking place in the same building, then there is a strong argument to make that it isn’t shinuy makom at all, and thus there would be no problem to begin with, even if everyone goes to the sanctuary (see Beiur Halakha on 178:2). Nevertheless, since some of the above is a matter of debate, it would be ideal to leave someone behind in the room where the eating took place to be יוצא מיד כל ספק.
    • There is also no li’chatachilah problem of switching rooms in the middle of eating to daven Ma’ariv.
      • Rema OH 178:2
        מיהו לצורך מצוה עוברת, כגון שהגיע זמן תפלה, מותר
• You MAY daven Kabbalat Shabbat before poreis mapah and then Ma’ariv at the end of the Shabbat meal. That way you are saying Kabbalat Shabbat before Tzeit and Ma’ariv after everything so there is no interruption in the meal
  • Both options are roughly equivalent, halakhically. Saying Ma’ariv before poreis mapah makes a greater separation between the se’udat Purim and the Shabbat meal, and is also more the norm: Ma’ariv generally precedes the Shabbat meal. There is also a concern that one might forget to say Ma’ariv if one waits until after the meal. Doing it this way, however, does raise some question as to whether one has to recite al ha’gefen, since it might constitute a hefsek. It also could be more disruptive on a practical level.

^Footnotes

^[1] Regarding the range of minhagim and the acceptability of all of them, Beit Yosef says explicitly writes: הכל לפי המנהג: “all is according to the custom.” Darkhei Moshe does note that when Purim falls out on Erev Shabbat the Minhag is to do it in the morning (so it doesn’t conflict with the Shabbat night meal), but that when it falls out on other days of the week, it is fine to do it towards evening time as long as the majority of the meal is eaten in the day. In contrast, Terumat HaDeshen (110) writes that the practice is to start in the late afternoon, and that there is a reason to specifically eat the majority after nightfall. Finally, it should be noted that a number of Achronim explicitly defend the practice of eating in the late afternoon, and it is also known that some gedolim would specifically make a point to eat the meal at the end of the day. ↩

^[2] See Arukh HaShulkhan, OH 695:7. ↩

^[3] See Rashi, Megillah 7a, s.v. Hayav; Rambam, Hilkhot Megillah 2:15, Shut Mishneh Halakhot 5:3, Moadim u’Zmanim 2:190, cited in Piskei Teshuvot 695:3. ↩